 |
|
Mar 31, 2008, 08:56 AM // 08:56
|
#1 |
|
I like yumy food!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I can eat yumy food
Guild: Dead Alley [dR]
Profession: Mo/R
|
Skill balance, and the disparity it creates
"Ohnoez thoz elitist PvPers gotz mi skills nurfed agian"
So that's pretty much the stereotypical joke used to laugh at party of the community who are completely clueless players who has no knowledge of how skill balance works and why skills are often not balanced around PvE. I'm not going to go into the special cases where PvE got their own nerfs (spirit bond, protective bond, etc.) and I definitely won't explain to clueless people why skill balance should revolve primarily around PvP. However, I will discuss the effects these skill balances have on PvE. That initial quote, though often coming from a naive person, has some basis. Obviously, by using the same set of skills, changes to one area is going to change another. When it's great that skills get buffed (WoH from 100->150), there's often an outrage if a skill gets just subsequently readjusted (WoH from 150->120), and even worse of one when a skill is plain nerfed. While I am all for PvP balance and spicing things up with new builds in PvE, changing only the shared skills causes a problem: the buffed skills are often not enough to see play in top level PvE areas, while some nerfed skills may result in a weaker ability to farm those areas. It's possible to get new builds, but just with the current ones, you're undoubtedly going to be less effective. But wait! What about those PvE-only skills? With the previous nerf of splinter weapon, a balanced team is "only" capable of hitting 3 adjacent targets with that skill. Imagine if it were to take another hit (which is likely) to reduce it to, say, the next 1..3..4 attacks. And now you compare it with the PvE-only skills that get untouched: SY, TNTF, EBS of honor, YMLaD, and the greatest of them all, Ursan blessing. You'll begin to notice a bigger and bigger disparity between being able to play a balanced PvE build with one that revolves primarily around PvE-only skills. As more and more skill balances take place and the shared skills become closer and closer to "average" utility, it means PvE-only skills become in comparison, much stronger. Does this mean we should just screw PvP and not balance at all? No. Not only will it destroy any sort of competitive gameplay, it'll be boring, even for PvE. Sure, some might like running the same thing year after year for the same zone, but others get bored. Skill balance promotes the creation of new ideas, and that's good, at least in my opinion. But with the normalization of all the shared skills to mediocrity, people will be somewhat forced to use PvE-only skills to compete. Even as it is now, if you don't care about lameness, why wouldn't you run Ursan over ANY balanced template (yes, even SY, which falls under the PvE-only category). As a consequence, the only way to resolve this disparity is to look at the state of the game, and balance PvE-only skills so that people aren't forced to rely on them to perform well. It's one thing to use them to be more effective. It's another to have to rely on them. What does this come down to? Nerf Ursan  ...and maybe balance some other goodies Oh, and I decided this to write the dumbed down version for people with an iq of less than 60: For those of you who are too stupid to read the whole thing and can only read one line, what I'm saying is not to just change PvE-only skills because of their absolute power. It needs to be changed based on its relative power to shared skills. For example, if today shared skills allow you to beat an area with 100 points of efficiency, and PvE-only skills boost that efficiency rating up to 120, then when those shared skills get toned down to only 60 points of efficiency, we should not leave PvE-only skill efficiency at 120. We should still make them stronger than regular skills, but not twice as strong (say, to 80 points of efficiency). |
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:03 AM // 10:03
|
#2 |
|
I like yumy food!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I can eat yumy food
Guild: Dead Alley [dR]
Profession: Mo/R
|
Oh, did I mention I have super powers and trolling my thread may result in a ban?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11
|
#3 |
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
So you really care about PvE?
Nice post and I agree. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:11 AM // 10:11
|
#4 |
|
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mableton, Georgia
Guild: Guild Ancestors Reunited [ギルド]
|
oh, did i mention i truthfully and honestly didn't care?
i in no way "trolled your thread". i simply stated truth about the ending section of your post. ursan threads are getting annoying, it's time everyone accepts ursan for what it is, and that is: overpowered. so, complaining that it needs a nerf is something we need to finally realise won't happen (not anytime soon, if it ever does get nerfed). ursan is part of the game... if ANet didn't like it being there they would downsize it like others skills as they see fit. correct, no? edit: about the "relying on pve-only skills to perfom well" part. i fully 100% DISAGREE. i do not rely on a single pve-only skill. in fact, i completely avoid them and i do prefectly well for myself. so, through my personal gaming experience, i find this one statement to be false. ^^ ~LeNa~
Last edited by jonnieboi05; Mar 31, 2008 at 10:19 AM // 10:19.. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:21 AM // 10:21
|
#5 |
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: America.....got a problem with that?
Guild: [Lite]
Profession: W/
|
.......wow, i thought i was gonna get something better than "Nerf Ursan" as a finisher.
I agree for the most part, but I would add that all buffs and nerfs should be scaled down (as in, no more buffing things insanly and no more nerfing inot oblivion) edit: I'm all for an ursan nerf BTW, It just wont happen man! |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25
|
#6 | |
|
Jungle Guide
Join Date: Oct 2007
Guild: Heroes of Elonia [HE]
Profession: W/Rt
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:36 AM // 10:36
|
#7 | ||||
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:42 AM // 10:42
|
#8 | |
|
I like yumy food!
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I can eat yumy food
Guild: Dead Alley [dR]
Profession: Mo/R
|
Quote:
And about not talking about the nerf just because Anet hasn't done anything to it: Anet hasn't touched bspike for a long time, but because it has been repeatedly brought up with good arguments why it is bad for the game, they finally decide to make the right move and nerf it. So what you're saying is that if something's broken, don't even bother explaining that it needs to be fixed? People before haven't articulated the argument as well as they should, and is one of the reasons why it has been overlooked and just considered a rant. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 10:57 AM // 10:57
|
#9 |
|
Frost Gate Guardian
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Norway
Guild: Violent Desire [RAGE]
Profession: Mo/
|
I have to agree 100% on this one. The biggest problem is that it's becoming harder and harder for people NOT to run overpowered PvE skills, and they degenerate into using ONLY these skills. Now PvE skills are good, and I appreciate that people don't always have time for such and such and Ursan (and others) are good alternatives, but when people never see any reason to use other builds, the entire state of the game degenerates. People are no longer learning how evolve within the game, and it will eventually turn to boredom once they realize it's no longer fun but they don't know how to do anything else.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 11:14 AM // 11:14
|
#10 |
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Your backline
Profession: W/
|
I agree on this.
Obviously overpowered skills like ursan, SY, TNTF should be nerfed. Add a SY/TNTF para to any party, no matter how bad, and they will be able to succeed in pretty much whatever it is they're doing. Skills like these should not exist, because it can stop people from ever running something else, something that might take skill, and force them to improve. And ursan, well..this skill is probably the most broken skill I've ever seen. Take 5 random people, have them throw 1 skill on their bar(UB), add 3 monks and they can complete pretty much everything that PvE can throw at you. This skill is not only seriously overpowered, but it takes away one of the biggest parts of guildwars: Making a build, adjusting to whatever it is you're going to face. Not to mention the fact that you can ignore blind, block, .. So yes, nerf please. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 11:30 AM // 11:30
|
#11 | ||
|
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: May 2005
Location: At an Insit.. Intis... a house.
Guild: Live Forever Or Die Trying [GLHF]
Profession: W/Me
|
Quote:
Even more amusing, most of them are _long time_ farmers who've already done thousands of smite runs and hundreds of CoF runs, so one would think they knew how their build works and have some skills in designing builds. Quote:
|
||
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 12:11 PM // 12:11
|
#12 | |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Canadia
Profession: W/
|
Quote:
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 12:24 PM // 12:24
|
#13 |
|
Wilds Pathfinder
Join Date: May 2007
Guild: Scions of Carver [SCAR]
Profession: E/
|
Yeah, it started off alright, made some good points, even though I had no idea what your point was, and then you had to bring up the U word. So another nerf ursan post, let's just throw that in to the collection of 1000+ other ursan complaints =P
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 01:10 PM // 13:10
|
#14 |
|
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Romania
Guild: None atm
Profession: Mo/
|
Let PvE skills remain overpowered. That's why they were implemented in the first place, so we can have slightly overpowered skills to play with, that don't ruin PvP.
And as a monk, there aren't that many PvE skills you can put on your bar - save maybe LoD and sometimes SS Rebirth Sig; but do you see me asking for a Brawling headbutt, or Drunken Stability, or any other PvE skill to be nerfed? No. So what if people like farming with Ursan? I, and I am quite sure many others, still prefer going out with 7 other people, running a fun and balanced build, and having a grand ol' time. Even if I could make my heroes run Ursan, I'd still H/H in HM with balanced builds, simply because it's more fun for me. Asking for an Ursan nerf is like asking for a collision detection nerf. Oh, woe is me, people run a bonder, 2 healers, a tank, and 4 nukers! That's not fun, and it's overpowered!!!1one Get over yourself, and if you don't want to be forced to run Ursan for farming, I suggest you find some friends who are capable of doing any area with a balanced build. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 01:23 PM // 13:23
|
#15 |
|
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Done.
Guild: [JUNK]
|
Problems:
1. Skill balance can ONLY revolve around PvP. To balance a skill we must not only look at the skill itself but also compare it to other skills and game rules. PvE breaks pretty much all the game rules. Thus if PvE should somehow influence the balancing process - the skill will NEVER be balanced. 2. When discussing gameplay - farming should never be used as any kind of example - outside of being an example of a totally broken gameplay. 3. In PvE the player needs to win. In PvP - both sides need to have an equal opportunity to win. That is why balance is needed in PvP - and that is why - nothing can be overpowered in PvE. 4. The introduction of competitive elements in PvE. It doesn't matter if team Z performs much better then my team. Team Z isn't in my instance. And as long as the game isn't "balanced" for the build Team Z is using - their actions don't concern me in the slightest. 5. Because PvE breaks so many rules and because the player NEEDS to win AND because I am not in competition with anyone in my game - we can not define balance in PvE thus nothing can be overpowered thus Ursan is fine as it is. Don't like it? Don't use it! Ursan isn't the problem here. The problem is that we are playing a degenerated form of PvE that enabled the existence of Ursan. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 01:34 PM // 13:34
|
#16 | |||
|
Desert Nomad
Join Date: Apr 2006
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
|||
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 01:56 PM // 13:56
|
#17 | |
|
Grotto Attendant
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Done.
Guild: [JUNK]
|
Quote:
And this is something that is constantly being overlooked. Because the players are presenting PvE in a form that should be (or better yet - in a form that player THINK it should be) - but it's a form that NEVER WAS and because it would take an insane amount of work - it NEVER WILL BE. So removing Ursan changes nothing - we are still left with foes that break all rules when it comes to casting speed, attack speed, amount of damage they do, the monster skills they use, their attribute points allocation, ... The game is as broken with Ursan as it would be without. The only difference is that the people who desire the use of a crunch - have it in the form of Ursan. And because that doesn't influence me in the slightest - I don't see a reasonable argument to go against it. Instawin buttons aren't preferred in a game that was well thought through. And that isn't something I'd describe GW PvE with. |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26
|
#18 | |
|
Forge Runner
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Mableton, Georgia
Guild: Guild Ancestors Reunited [ギルド]
|
Quote:
~LeNa~
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 02:38 PM // 14:38
|
#19 | |
|
(屮ಠ益ಠ)屮
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Hong Kong
Guild: Guildless
Profession: Mo/
|
Damned computer had to shut down in the middle of a post...
I'm purely theorycrafting here, having not used PvE skills nor played the game for quite a while. The sole purpose of PvE skills is to let players toy with a new imbalanced skillset. Now, of course, this is common sense. However, the point I'd like to raise is that Guild Wars is pretty challenging, and these PvE skills serve to alleviate some of this challenge for newer players (oh, who am I kidding? ...), or in any case, less experienced/skilled players while still providing a source of enjoyment. Perhaps the creation of a new skillset, and an addition of a mode that goes without the usage of 'overpowered' PvE skills. Maybe a more interesting idea for a different skillset of PvE skills would be to find flexible effects that would undoubtedly raise havoc in PvP play, but still promote skillful play in PvE...but chances are such flexible effects would also be a welcome addition to PvP play. Or perhaps it could be a testing ground for new skill effects and the relative usability/'skillfulness' of such. The other problem which lies with this thread and various others dealing with PvE 'balance'...would be that while general PvE has absolutely no use for 'skill' balance, the imbalance of a skill is not insignificant. An oversimplified model of PvE balance mainly revolves around class balance and enemy balance. Class balance is to ensure that every character has an equal chance of success, i.e. every profession should, ideally, be of equal importance, none overshadowing the other. The other part of PvE balance would be a balance between player capabilities and enemy capabilities - put simply, the effectiveness of offense, defense (and disruption, as an afterthought) against the enemy; a good balance between these capabilities should provide for a challenging game that isn't impossible. Yes, there is no individual 'skill' balance (or at least the 'skill balance' as seen is mostly an illusion), as there is no opponent that will exploit that skill, and nobody would care if you would expoit that skill – it's PvE, after all, and people would probably congratulate you on finding such an 'innovative way to play the game' or whatnot. However, while there is no underlying 'skill' balance, such skill changes would change the class balance in PvE, and such 'skill' balance can drastically affect the balance of capabilities. Most of the ranting done over PvE skills are due to this imbalance of capabilities – namely, that the balance has been shifted to the 'overpowered' side, where gameplay becomes too easy. However, it must be taken into account that this balance is mainly subjective, and so one person's view may not equal another's. Quote:
Two cents from an admittedly bad theorycrafter. P.S. To all those who talk about nerfs, a reminder: overpowered skills are infinitely more important than underpowered skills, as overpowered skills can define roles while underpowered skills cannot.
__________________
|
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 31, 2008, 04:32 PM // 16:32
|
#20 |
|
Academy Page
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Guild: SHS
|
Whilst I don't use Ursan (primarily cos my only character that has it is only Rank 2 Norn and an Elementalist), I can see the effect it has on high-end PvE.
Instead of nerfing Ursan, can I ask for a buff (or upwardly-focused balance) for both Raven and Volfen? I've always likened Volfen (particularly Volfen Pounce) to a wolf-pack type skill with great imagery of a team of Volfens using their enhanced speed to position themselves for a synchronised attack on an enemy. Great image but no-one uses Volfen, cos Ursan is better. Raven has some cools skills too, but lacks the weakening factor of Ursan Roar. Anyways, agree with the OP, but buff Raven/Volfen instead! |
|
|
|
 |
|
«
Previous Thread
|
Next Thread
»
| Thread Tools | |
| Display Modes | |
Linear Mode
|
|
Similar Threads
|
||||
| Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
| Fitz Rinley | The Riverside Inn | 21 | Dec 14, 2007 09:11 PM // 21:11 | |
| August 10th Skill Balance Balance. | Theus | The Riverside Inn | 70 | Aug 11, 2007 11:19 AM // 11:19 |
| You want skill balance? I'll give you skill balance | Praetor | Sardelac Sanitarium | 25 | Apr 11, 2007 07:00 AM // 07:00 |
| what make cause a skill to change during Skill Balance update? | leoknight | Questions & Answers | 10 | Feb 08, 2006 05:19 PM // 17:19 |
All times are GMT. The time now is 05:55 AM // 05:55.
jQuery(document).ready(checkAds()); function checkAds(){if (document.getElementById('adsense')!=undefined){document.write("_gaq.push(['_trackEvent', 'Adblock', 'Unblocked', 'false',,true]);");}else{document.write("